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Question on batteries

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I collect electric cards. The question arose which battery to use. Let's say it's a 12V 60Ah car battery.
1. To what voltage can it be squandered so that it does not collapse?
2. How long will it withstand charge / discharge cycles?
3. How long will it last? They say that 12V is almost a deep discharge. That is, if the battery is discharged to 0.7V, can not it be used? But how much capacity is this? Those same 60Ah?
4. How to use BMS for such a battery?
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12 comments
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
I am far from special in the types of batteries, but I know a lot about ordinary acid-lead batteries ...))))
So, on sale (we have at least) there are acid-lead traction batteries for stackers and boats. They are significantly more expensive (but not at times). Moreover, with the same size they have a lower capacity.
But .. Due to the thicker plates and the greater distance between them, they are not afraid of the "deep" .. And since modern manufacturers often "marketing mischief", indicating the FULL capacity (and not working - the one that can be "sucked out" without harm for the battery), then the difference is not significant! (Traction then you can "drink to the bottom")))))
Moreover, observing how most of our consumers use batteries, I can say with all responsibility that ALMOST all motorists have a battery after one year of operation, God forbid, half of its capacity !!! AND THIS IS MASSIVE !!! (For example, 98% of the people after they forgot to turn off the lights and had to “light them up” do not even think about removing the battery from the car and putting it on a stand for FULL charging, followed by several charge-discharge cycles, (or though -by days in cyclic mode), and then again fully charged !!! And only after that (!!!) installation on the car again !!! But, if you don’t do this, but just drive, then under the hood it’s not 60 OK, and, somewhere, 40!))))).Yes, and it is inexorably approaching a collapse in the next "deep", after which, with the same operation, it will already be the 25th))))) ... But the people go ...
I mean, Dmitry, that a normal 40 will be more capacious than your usual "60" matches!)))))
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Reply To quote A complaint
Dmitrij,
The starter will not go there. It cannot run in a loop; it is for buffer mode. If you certainly do not have ICE.
In extreme cases, AGM, although something extreme, the most.
Where do you live? Write in a personal, look for similar ones.
Author 0
Reply To quote A complaint
Gel at an electrolyte price of 60 Ah have a capacity in the region of 20 Ah. Very sad ((Three times more expensive. I think the usual starter 60A will last 3 years for my operation. I would be happy with it.
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
Traction DZM will become the author in waste.
The gel is the best option, it is designed for deep discharge. Wheelchairs often use AGM, the reviews are quite positive. The gel is used as an alternative.
I can assume that in the old magazine they didn’t know about AGM and gel. If you used a starter, then the system was an internal combustion engine.
In this case, electric cards, but here is a completely different system.
And further.
Gel and AGM can not correctly be called starting. Since they are used in inverters. And there the battery life is not 5 seconds (as at startup), but a clock.
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
That gel, that AGM-ki are all the same starter (capable of delivering maximum current), and the author in any way needs to look for traction (adapted to a long discharge). Even under the old mode, in the magazine "Model Designer" discussed electric cards (on junior class cards, like a traction motor. a car starter was installed)
0
Reply To quote A complaint
Valery
Due to the fact that no matter how important the starting current is for an electric car, check the current in the electric car during starting from a place, it is more than with a gasoline-powered car
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
For long-term work you need DZM, those that are used by manufacturers of wheelchairs.
As a replacement for them, it is GEL or high current AGM. But without a guarantee. We usually say this to customers.
If for lithium, then the price is very high. Still need to collect the battery, weld the elements by spot welding.
BMS circuit boards are fully in China.
DZM cost space money in the Russian market.
Automotive needs to be ruled out immediately. It is good for working in a buffer, and you need a battery for a cycle.
For GEL and AGM batteries of a specific manufacturer, you can download the documentation. It has a detailed description with bit characteristics.
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
In general, read on the topic (I do not want to write a lot of bukafs))))
To use for this a starter (starting) battery is impractical !!! For this, there are so-called "traction" batteries. They differ in thicker plates, and, as a result, significantly lower values ​​of starting currents (which in our case is not important at all), but, on the other hand, they are not at all afraid of discharge and are practically not subject to such a phenomenon as "deep discharge" !!! !
They are produced specifically for cars, stackers, boats and other .... NOT FOR STARTERS!
0
Reply To quote A complaint
If the battery is maintenance-free, then it must be charged with a current of not more than 6A for 10 hours. Possible options are 3A and 20 hours. In any case, the charge current should not exceed 0.1 of the capacity. Otherwise, electrolyte boils and warps the plates. This will lead to shedding and / or shorting inside the can.

A little bit of poisoning:
As I wrote recently, charging (WITHOUT HARM) can be done in two ways:
1. Current = const.
2. Voltage = const.
This is the whole charge !!!!
The first method is very difficult to implement.
In the second case, there is no constant dependence of the charge time on the magnitude of the "absorbed" current, since together with the charge level the internal resistance of the battery also increases, which at U = const leads to a drop in the consumed current !!!
That is, this does not mean that if we set at the beginning a current = 0.1 of the capacitance (which, as correctly noted, is the maximum allowable value), then the battery will charge in 10 hours !!!!
It needs to be charged until the current drops to one ampere.At the same time, there should be a strong, sufficiently long and uniform gas separation in ALL banks !!!
With a constant voltage value, the battery WILL NOT TAKE more current than it needs !!! Resistance will increase, as I said, and the current will fall itself !!!!
+1
Reply To quote A complaint
Dmitrij
1) Up to 10.5 V (no load);
2) 500 (depending on the frequency and manner of use);
3) For 1 year on the strength (also depends on the frequency and ravings of the ride);
4) The main thing is to charge the correct, constant voltage and current, a car battery does not need to be especially controlled when charging.
Lead batteries are not practical in electric drives of cars (since it is better to use starter batteries with liquid electrolyte, they are not cheap). For lead, the ratio of weight and capacity is poor, then you will not gain useful speed but use most of the battery energy for their transportation, but they are cheaper than lithium batteries in which the ratio is better.
You need to ask another question (I know, I also design electric drives): "what distance and with what speed will I go on it, well, for example, at 60 A with one battery charge"? It depends on the side weight of the car, its speed, lift, road quality, the presence of a smooth start, gearbox, differential, etc. If the weight of the board, say 200 kg, then at a speed of 18 km / h at 60 A (good battery), you will drive about 80 km along a perfectly horizontal, even road (without taking into account the energy spent on starting from a place), if 2X60 A, then less 160 km (as the weight increases).
Z advancing))
Author 0
Reply To quote A complaint
Many thanks!
+4
Reply To quote A complaint
1. Up to 10.8
2. How will you care for him - to control the discharge and density.
No need to listen to what someone is saying there. You need to open a book describing the operation of lead batteries and read a few lines.
60A * h means that the battery is able to give a current of 1A for 60 hours and at the same time the voltage on it drops to the minimum allowable 10.8 V. Next, disconnect the battery from the load and charge it. If the battery is serviced, then the density of the electrolyte, which does not change its value for 2 hours, will serve as a sign of full charge. Recommended Density 1.27
If the battery is maintenance-free, then it must be charged with a current of not more than 6A for 10 hours. Possible options are 3A and 20 hours. In any case, the charge current should not exceed 0.1 of the capacity. Otherwise, electrolyte boils and warps the plates. This will lead to shedding and / or shorting inside the can.
3. For car battery, BMS is not needed.

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