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Easy and safe starting of the motor with a welding inverter

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Everything happens in life, so it’s good to know everything in order to get out of a difficult situation. Ahead is winter, which means that many will have problems starting the engine. Even if the battery is new, it costs nothing to land due to inexperience, rotating the frozen motor. And to charge the battery for a long time, and not everyone can have a charger at all.


I will show you how to safely start a DC motor. In mine there is no function to start the engine, and the inverter outputs about 65V at the output, the maximum current is 250A.

How much starter is eating?
When working in harsh conditions (winter), the starter consumes around 150-200A, we are talking about modern starters on modern cars. My old KATEK easily eats 250-300A.

The welding machine we produce 250A, this is a current limit. Thanks to this limitation, you will not burn the starter at any voltage, even at 220V. Of course, it is better to increase the current gradually, 250A for a modern starter is already a lot, it is better to start with 100A.

Generally speaking, the inverter and starter are a great company.

Onboard network
The vehicle’s on-board network operates from a voltage of no higher than 17-20V, usually at 20V bulbs and other devices already burn out. Usually in the on-board network of the order of 13-13.5V (it all depends on the machine).

If you give 65V to the on-board network from the welding inverter, everything that was included in the network will burn for you in an instant. And the ignition coil, the generator relay, the dashboard, the gas tank sensor will be included in the network, the retractor of the starter will also suffer.

Generally speaking - the inverter and the on-board network are atomic bomb, the car, at best, will not burn down completely!

Way out:
To start the motor from the inverter, without breaking anything, the on-board network must be connected to the battery, it can be sunken in trash, you need 9, 8, or even less volts, the most important thing is that the battery pulls the retractor starter, and enough for a spark. Then the generator will work, and the voltage of the on-board network will be normal.

Well, at the power input of the starter, we feed our bold "+" from the welding inverter, DO NOT FORGET TO DISABLE THE BORTNET. We sit in the lounge and calmly start the key. Do not forget about safetyso that the inverter does not fall off after starting, and the circuit is not shorted!





On an old VAZ 21-classic, the wiring system is easily disconnected from the main power wire that goes to the starter.I made a separate terminal from the wire and separately applied “+” from the battery to the onboard network.

Fashionable youtube way to start from the welder. DO NOT REPEAT!!!
The bottom line is that the power from the inverter is supplied directly to the dead battery, as a result, the voltage sags and the engine can be started. But keep in mind that such a method is unpredictable, at any time the contact between the battery may be broken and your clunker will burn to hell!


And it will be with your flight system!


How to “push” a battery with an inverter?
If you need to recharge the battery so that it at least pulls the retractor, connect the battery through the electrolyzer, which will limit the current. I do not recommend connecting the battery directly to the welder, you can kill the inverter and so on.
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88 comments
proch 0
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Dmitry. We with a neighbor at different times started cars according to your experience. Started at the beginning of my 3 years ago I got akb grunted half a year later and he also started a tractor. It snapped on a bank battery. I had to take a new battery. Be careful with acid
+1
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I'm sad .....
Guest Sergey 0
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what is a board network? if you disconnect everything except the starter, then how will the spark come, if the coils are connected then they will burn.
0
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Quote: Dmitrij
solid theoretical nonsense

That's for me?
Author 0
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solid theoretical nonsense
+1
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How many have written! Wow. A conversation is not worth a damn.
We look at the characteristics of the starter, for example, 12 volts, 1.5 kW. The current in operating mode I = 1500/12 = 125 A. With a "difficult" scrolling of the motor, the current will be slightly higher. This will be because in the starter the stator windings (working) and the armature (excitation) are connected in series.
For the operation of the starter, ABSOLUTELY any power source with a voltage of not more than 15-17 volts and which is capable of delivering the required current to the load is suitable. What kind of source it will be - a battery, an inverter, a transformer with a rectifier, does not matter.
The permissible voltage and operating time of the starter must not be exceeded. It will burn and that's it.
Everything else is verbiage.
Author 0
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Shoveled the Internet, and did not find a rational explanation why to regularly charge the battery with third-party devices. These cases include only the discharge of the battery when you forgot to turn off the headlights, or when, well, you start up very often in the city and the battery dries out every day.

In any case, the battery discharge is displayed on its voltage, and the voltage correlates with the density of the electrolyte. Lower voltage - lower density. Electrolyte boiling is the ultimate density of the electrolyte and the ultimate charge. But the voltage will be checked at rest when the battery for 6 hours is not connected to anything.

It is also checked by a load plug or a normal starter, the subsidence voltage should not be less than 9.5V. If the voltage is normal at rest, and when it starts up, it sags a lot - the battery in the trash can help him. But this is a loose concept, starters are different, engine volumes, oil viscosity and temperature are different for everyone.

And on the forums people write that they do not charge their batteries and they also go about 8 years. Yes, and any battery that is not very rotten walks so much without any charges (without taking into account the amount of full discharge - when the starter is no longer spinning)
0
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If boils, the capacity will no longer be.
I talked about density
Once they charged me with a gun, it’s rare shit, for half a day it cheated there, so it didn’t start the car.
Machine gun discord. Simply, they do not fully charge everything.
Oh well, I’m finishing the argument
So far, I, it seems, have not argued))))
but I don’t think that overcharging for the battery is useful

The battery will never take excess current !!! Subject to the rules of charging, with increasing internal resistance of the battery, the current consumption will also drop!
Boils - is already collapsing.
To do this, you need to put it on the stove, or give the charging current several times more than 10 percent of the capacity.
I repeat again - gas separation with boiling is in no way connected !!!! Touch it - only at the very end of the charge it will heat up a little. (if good)
Although if you have electrolyte leaked, then you need to add electrolyte.
Electrolyte does not leak. If it follows - throw it out !!!
I remember squeezing it through traffic jams on an old battery.
Either it was a relay-regulator, or - you already killed the battery and a piece of sulfate crust, breaking off, shorted the plates. (The most common death is for those owners who do not charge.)
And yet - I did not hear the manufacturer asking to charge their batteries,

They do not ask. They require that the battery is always fully charged. And the fact that it needs to be charged is prescribed in all maintenance instructions.
Also saw a bunch of maintenance free lead acid batteries

Unattended - meaning no water topping! BUT ONLY!!! (there it is made so that the steam condenses and flows back.
And anyway ... Dmitry. You are the militant battery killer!
Go to any company selling them and ask about all this. You will repeat everything that I wrote.
P.S. Well, honestly, I was surprised that there was someone who believes that the battery does not need to be charged ....
Author 0
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If boils, the capacity will no longer be. Once they charged me with a gun, it’s rare shit, for half a day it cheated there, so it didn’t start the car.
Well, okay, I’m finishing the argument, but I don’t think that recharging for the battery is useful. Boils - is already collapsing.

Well, yes, you need to add water. Although if you have electrolyte leaked, then you need to add electrolyte. I remember squeezing it through traffic jams on an old battery.
And yet - I did not hear the manufacturer asking to charge their batteries, add water yes, but charge no. Also saw a bunch of maintenance free lead acid batteries
0
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And it’s better to remove the battery (even “fully charged”))) from the car every six months, check the level in the banks, (add ONLY WATER !!!!), put on charge. If the automatic charger (as it’s fashionable now)))), then this .... well, it’ll go! ... It's better than nothing!)))). Nothing better!
If manual - set 10% of capacity, wait a couple of minutes. If the current drops rapidly, (very discharged, although it is not visible while it was visible), then after a couple of minutes (when it stopped falling) we bring it back to this value and DO NOT TOUCH MORE !!!!. We charge until it falls to one ampere. (If there is no hydrometer). Boils, does not boil - it does not matter! Let it "boil", the density will be more))))
All!!!
The cheapest leaves for seven or eight years. No surprises! (if correctly matched to the car, the generator is working, and there is no factory defect that "climbs out" immediately)
0
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Where in my wiring is redone? I do not recommend charging the battery with an electrolyzer, this is an extreme extreme

To start the motor from the inverter, without breaking anything, the on-board network must be connected to the battery ... and to the power input of the starter we supply our bold "+" from the welding inverter, DO NOT FORGET TO DISCONNECT THE WIRELESS ... On an old VAZ 21-classic wiring system It is easily disconnected from the main power wire that goes to the starter. I made a separate terminal from the wire and separately applied “+” from the battery to the onboard network.
As far as I understand, in the standard wiring version, the on-board network and the starter's power input are combined, and I had a suspicion that they were separated in advance, because it is problematic to mess with "oak" wires in the cold.
Well, about charging:
If you need to recharge the battery so that it at least pulls the retractor, connect the battery through the electrolyzer, which will limit the current. I do not recommend connecting the battery directly to the welder, you can kill the inverter and so on.
do not consider this as nit-picking, but it is perceived as advice or recommendation.
Author 0
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And so, then it is necessary to measure the drawdown voltage. At the time of torsion starter. Although, I already know that if the starter turns sluggishly, then something is wrong with the battery or starter.
0
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at
so bubbles form at the highest possible density. Or not?)

Not.
Voltage also reflects density, these are related concepts.

Yes. But "idling" the difference will be such that you will not see with an ordinary household tester !!! To do this, there are load plugs - a voltmeter with a powerful resistor that allows you to measure voltage under load. Only so visible!
Author 0
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Well, so bubbles form at the highest possible density. Or not?) Tension also displays density, these are related concepts.
0
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Starter batteries do not discharge evenly! The discharge schedule first decreases hollow (very hollow !!!), and then "falls off a cliff." This is a phenomenon called the “fall into a deep discharge”. Not one is destined to rise completely from this fall!)))) And until this very “collapse”, the values ​​of its voltage will differ by a minuscule !! And then - op-pa !! and 10 volts!
Briefly! When discharged, sulfates form on the plates. When charged, they dissolve !!! If the battery is "undercharged" for a long time - they harden and already remain forever, selecting the capacity. The battery must always be fully charged !!! If after each start-up the engine runs for at least half an hour (the average value of the time needed to restore the cost of starting), then you do not need to charge it! If in half a year it was at least several times that the engine started in less than half an hour (even if two or three times), it is NECESSARY to recharge it to full charge (not by "bubbles", but by density!) To dissolve sulfates !!!
(Read: EVERY battery needs to be charged CORRECTLY twice on the charger!)
Let's go further ... Started, 15 minutes ... drowned out ... Again started up ... Ten minutes ... drowned out ...
The battery capacity is, in fact, huge ... Yes, and it recharges a little ... But it, nevertheless, is slowly but surely approaching a collapse in the "deep discharge" !!!! He can move there a couple of years ... But one day (most likely, in the winter, when the density also drops due to frost), for no apparent reason, we will find that "yesterday I played fine, but today I completely died" .... And this is the "fur-bearing beast" that still crept ...
All! This battery already, at best, will return half of its capacity! (At the best - 80%. But this, as I wrote, takes weeks). Because when deep, the sulfate crust hardens immediately !!!!! And it never dissolves to the end!
So where to charge it if it boils?))

This is no boiling !!!!!
Gas separation begins at the end of the charge. Right. But this does not say that it is fully charged. Need to measure the density. And continue to charge until it evens out in all the "banks"
Author +1
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Tested to see what happens to the nickles when the inverter starts. The motor was used GAZ-2410, a cold, welding inverter 250A is not enough to turn it.

At the moment of rupture of the nickels, a welding arc is really formed, but rather short and "not hot." From such an arc, metal does not collapse at all. But a black coating forms from the arc, part of which is washed off with water, and the rest is easily removed with sandpaper.





As for the nature of the "craters", they are both from the inverter and from the battery, the depth is approximately the same. Of course, I touched the edges of the nickel, since it’s hard to touch the plane manually ... In short, I didn’t notice anything terrible, even though the picture is ugly, it’s unlikely that the nickels will clog or “weld”. But often, of course, it is better not to get involved in this method.

However, here is a safer way - first we turn on the retractor, then we feed on the starter, so the five-copeck coins will not participate in closing the circuit. Well, we also open it - first the inverter, then the retractor.The main thing is not to keep the retractor on for a long time, otherwise it will burn. Although, there is already at risk there is a retractor, which can be forgotten by inexperience, so it’s better to get through the nickels.
Author 0
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So where to charge it if it boils?)) A discharge occurs, voltage drops, doesn’t it?) The battery can live forever if you put a gear starter, LED lamps and so on. And if in Zhigul there are loads of 300-350A, then what kind of service life are we talking about?))
+2
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and to ask a fellow motorist or vice versa, to help him in a difficult situation is easier and faster than doing dubious experiments.

Someone in the next topic wrote about how he was tormented by chopping the roots of a tree in a pit ... I was also perplexed - what was difficult to cut with their saber saw?))))))
Am I right?)))) I always do that if I stumble upon a root in a pit. It is easy and convenient. Rezanul on both sides, threw a piece of wood - and dig further ..
I mean, I think that everyone has wires in the trunk ... Here are "fellow motorists" in the neighborhood - not everyone))))
P.S. I strongly condemn the fact that Dmitry does not serve batteries. It is not only necessary to charge them, but it is important and correct to do it!
But, here, in emergency cases .... Even if there is a charger, but there is no launcher, but you need to go now and urgently .... In short, as I already wrote, in a fire and x ... - the pump !!!!
0
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I regularly take measurements, the voltage on the battery is 12.95V, why charge it?

And measurements of residual capacity are also regular ???? Do you even know about such a concept as "deep discharge", what it is fraught with and what it comes from ????
Yes, in normal life I have never charged a battery outside the on-board network and I have no idea why this is done.

In order not to consider then an old five-year battery! My battery died only once in my sixth year of life! Usually, even the cheapest ones go more !!!
P.S. Remember how in the 90s they drove from Germany "auto trash", which was 12-15 years old ??? So, on all of them were native batteries !!! Which from the factory! Because the Germans are SERVING them !!! And do not stupidly put and ride !!!
I need to charge the battery when it is dead.

Not a single battery in the world has restored its original capacity after a collapse in the "deep" even by 90% ...
If it is correctly deduced from deep (with small currents for several days, then several charge-discharge cycles and then full charge with a current equal to 10% of the capacity) then we will return 80 percent of the capacity ...
But the people, we can only "drive the night" can.))))
Author +1
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Where in my wiring is redone? I do not recommend charging the battery with an electrolyzer, this is an extreme extreme. Why control it? Started to bubble, ready.

Yes, in normal life I have never charged a battery outside the on-board network and I have no idea why this is done. I need to charge the battery when it is dead. A charger is needed, but very rarely, so I'm too lazy to buy it.
I regularly take measurements, the voltage on the battery is 12.95V, why charge it? Of course, I do not drive around the city and do not start the engine every 5 minutes ...
Author +3
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I live in the forest practically, it’s not like a fellow, but only one person has a moped on the opposite edge. Where do I stick my wires? And on the way, someone will push or pull you more willingly than give a light. For example, I am wary of such things. If his battery is dead, it means that there is a problem with the starter or wiring (with a high probability), then he and my battery will come to a damn.
+2
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Dmitrij
By the way, can it be started with an inverter?
No, the arc, five-copeck coins, the valves will start to burn, better with a stun gun! xaxa
0
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In an emergency, I keep wires in the trunk for “lighting”, and asking a fellow motorist or vice versa to help him in a difficult situation is easier and faster than doing dubious experiments.
0
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or single, in an emergency?
It seems that such emergency situations arise quite often if the wiring of the machine is specially made for them. Yes, I admit honestly, I first read the article “on the run” and really thought that the inverter was connected to the battery. But now a lot of questions have arisen- how to have a car without a charger and advise you to recharge a dead battery with an inverter through an electrolyzer? So I want to ask, “Are you serious?”, And how to control the charge? And how does a battery charge in normal life, only from a car’s generator?
Author 0
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Well, in winter, in great frost, I was thinking about starting up the inverter, so as not to torment the starter with prolonged sluggish torsion and the battery. But if the five-copeck coins burn, then of course not so hot ...

Well, in an emergency, at least the option you need to know all 100%. How many things happen in life, you need to know such things, it’s like starting a heart ... By the way, can it be started by an inverter? We have to try, on cats ... Joke.
+2
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Dmitrij
By mistake, you can insert a nail into the outlet
Exactly, and also: you can foolishly and ... break! xaxa
Author 0
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I’ll try tomorrow to directly throw on the starter + power from the inverter, see if there will be an arc ...
+1
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Khatul Madan
As a result, craters will appear on the nickel, the contact area will change, and finally it will weld, but not from the arc, but from contact welding
I’m already afraid to discuss this topic, otherwise Valery can drown me in a bucket with hard drives :))), but nevertheless, I dare to ask a question: are we discussing a constant launch (each time) or a one-time emergency? If on an ongoing basis, then integrate the inverter under the hood, and now you have a new homemade product: Car + Welding, well, or: A welding machine in the car body! xaxa
0
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My point of view is the same: considering that the voltages are approximately the same, connect at least to the battery, at least to the inverter, at least to the hydroelectric power station - ARCS WILL NOT BE !!!! Because the current depends on the load and voltage, and not as not on the SOURCE PROPERTIES !!!!
At the moment of turning on the arc there will not be (yet), but at the moment of switching off it is guaranteed just by the properties of the source.
voltages are approximately the same
until the inverter-starter circuit breaks, then according to the first law of switching (the current through the inductance, and the starter, although small, but the inductance cannot be changed abruptly) we have a voltage surge in addition to the voltage (now) of the inverter idle (65 V) . Well, how can an arc not arise here? As a result, craters will appear on the nickel, the contact area will change, and finally it will weld, but not from the arc, but from contact welding.
+1
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Leobrynn
I recently changed the HDD to SSD. Speeds grew incredibly
About 5 years ago I changed it in the tablet to Atom (on Windows). The battery life has increased, the weight and heating have significantly decreased! good
+1
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Yeah, the other day I changed the HDD to SSD. Speeds grew incredibly. Satisfied like a cat who upgraded a sausage to a square sausage!
+2
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Leobrynn
Nope, please give me a bucket of hard drives, and a couple of barrels of cartridges
In the good old Soviet times, when there were wired telephones, not every house was in it, and the KGB worked very efficiently, and I’m discussing buying a hard drive with a friend on the phone. Father flies up, “hangs up” the phone and hisses: “I’ve lost my mind, such things are on the phone!” A military man, what is a computer, in those days he still did not know, later, when I taught him how to play chess on a computer, he said that it was worth inventing a computer, if only for chess! xaxa
+1
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Nope, please give me a bucket of hard drives, and a couple of barrels of cartridges. xaxa
Author +1
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By mistake, you can insert a nail into a socket, and no longer wiring will burn. You need to think head off.
Nikolai Alekseevich Burov 0
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humans tend to make mistakes.therefore, a high probability of either an electrician on a car in the trash, or a new inverter to buy. such kulibins must be taken to the kunst camera.
+1
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Valery
For reports you need not a bucket, but a hard drive, or paper! "
Right! A bucket of paper and half a bucket of hard drives! goodgood
0
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Valery
He imagined how Korolev would appear and say:
Well, who is trolling here? Once again I earnestly ask:
No need to ascribe to me what I did not say!
smile
+1
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Already loudly laughed just !!! ))))
The director just asked me why he didn’t see reports from me for a long time ... I replied: “And you don’t see how busy I am now? !! Allocate me an hour or two, and I’ll write you a full bucket of these reports and more half a bucket of excel tables with explanations for them! " ))))) ...
And the laugh itself did not hold back !!
... I imagined how Korolev would appear now and say: “I don’t agree with you! For reports you need not a bucket, but a hard drive, or paper!” And then he will start arguing with me that I promised to upload Excel files in a bucket, and THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE !!! )))))
And when I say what we said, actually about the lack of time, he will say: "I didn’t say a word about that !!")))) ok
.. Good luck and seven feet under kilt .... under the keel! ok
+1
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Valery
current depends on load and voltage
Uffff ... well, finally !!! And I about what:
Yes, I strongly insist that with the same voltage (12V) and the same load (starter)
and the battery, and the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric station are able to give the SAME CURRENT !!!
drinks
0
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Valery
It really seems to me that you are specifically engaged in "literary studies", if only in the end "to be right" ..
You did not convince me of my wrongness, I tell you about Ohm’s law, “paper” in your opinion, I will quote myself, my beloved:
Valery, I went to school a long time ago, but I remember that Georg Simon Om something else there and about the voltage drilled!
I poorly imagine a current without voltage!
And you to me:
We speak NOT ABOUT TENSION !!! Only PRO CURRENT !!!
You yourself are confused, then you have a hydroelectric power station, then (thanks to Dmitry) the "bottleneck" of the current limit.
Everything that you said before that was written precisely with the purpose of proving that there will be an arc on the nickels !!!
And there was no thought! Full allegations! No need to ascribe to me what I did not claim! I will repeat for the third time: I didn’t say a word about dimes and an arc! When I refer to your statements, I must quote them so as not to be unfounded.
0
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Honestly ... So already tired ...
As you run into a wall ... It really seems to me that you are specifically engaged in "literary studies", if only as a result of "being right" ..
Take, at least this:
I didn’t say a word about dimes and an arc!

And what are we talking about here ????
No !!!!
Everything that you said before that was written precisely with the purpose of proving that there will be an arc on the nickels !!!

At least I take it that way ...
Because it is for this purpose and IN THIS KEY that I wrote that comment about the hydroelectric power station for which you were hooked ... And now, with many comments, you prove that I was wrong !!! (read: "the arc will be there!")
Here is one of two things:
Or you started to "answer the answer without seeing the question")))). Or .... or, in fact, engage in boredom demagogy !!!

So.
We speak NOT ABOUT TENSION !!! Only PRO CURRENT !!! (it seems ... I already wrote this more than once.))) Do not ignore again, please.))))
Will there be an arc on the nickels, if you connect another (inverter) instead of one current source (battery) ????
In the same vein (NOT ABOUT VOLTAGE !!!)
Will the current change if connected to different sources, including the three times damned hydroelectric power station ??????
My point of view is the same: considering that the voltages are approximately the same, connect at least to the battery, at least to the inverter, at least to the hydroelectric power station - ARCS WILL NOT BE !!!! Because the current depends on the load and voltage, and not as not on the SOURCE PROPERTIES !!!!
Refute! smiles
Or agree ...
I do not care)))). As you like - just consider it.)))) Tired of ... smiles
0
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It has long been ... Did for the customer Charger and + optional - Launcher. For Lada (VAZ 2105?) And something there was with the "Start button" ... Tk with the key from the car incl.starter from the battery and for a short time (in parallel?) Which "sagged" until 14v
0
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Valery
So I say that when the consumed current "rests" against the released 250 A (the starter should have more), the cork will sag thoroughly at the inverter output ...
Sorry, Valery, Dmitrij said about current limitation only today! When you talked about connecting the starter directly to the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station, 15.10. at 10.32, you claimed that Yes, plug in. Are you a starter directly to the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station - it will “pull out” the current exactly as much as it draws from the battery (charged). No more, no less !!! My statement
Yes, I strongly insist that at the same voltage (12V) and the same load (starter)
and battery and Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station able to give SAME CURRENT !!!
You turned in
That is, you categorically insist that the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station not able to give at the same voltage more current than the battery ???? )))))
Although in one of the previous comments you asked the question a little differently:
That is, you insist that both the battery and the Sayano-Shushenskaya hydroelectric power station able to give SAME CURRENT ????
I didn’t say a word about dimes and an arc!
0
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Well, so am I about it ....
0
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I wrote about the Start-Charger. Inverter and do not try ...
Author 0
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Well, you probably need to push the diesel in parallel, only the battery will hurt
Author +2
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I went and checked, at the time of start-up, the voltage from 72V drops to about 15V, and when the starter is already turning the motor, the voltage is stable at 25V. But my network is weak, even the LED bulbs in the house blink at the moment of starting the motor))) It looks ridiculous as if you are launching a gravitsap rather than a Lada
0
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The car starts up from the start-charging device, and it has much less current

Did you really start the car with the help of the ROM, when there is absolutely NO battery on it? And it turned out? Did he have enough current?
P.S. I mean, those ROMs that I saw were only able to help the battery, after slightly recharging it. And without him, they were not able to crank the engine. Still weak "gasoline" - it is possible! But even a two-liter gasoline - no longer! Only with the battery together.
I am silent about diesel ...
+2
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Guys, are you all serious?))

It also begins to seem to me that no one wants to ponder the meaning of what has been said, but just ... so .. "touch it."))))
0
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Yes, I did not argue ... I just tried to explain what I had in mind ...
Uh ... Or do you also think that since the inverter is designed for welding, then when connected to an inductive load, an electric arc will still appear at the contacts ????))))). And at the same time, do you think that it will arise from the fact that "the inverter will give a current to the inverter" ???? xaxa

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